You Have to Enjoy It a Lot

Summary

Naval frames marketing as an open problem with no single right answer — videos, writing, tweeting, parties, even a sandwich board can all work. The real question is which of these you genuinely enjoy doing, because the medium that wins for you is the one you’ll keep doing long after most people quit. He warns friends who pitch him on starting a podcast for marketing reasons: “Do you genuinely enjoy talking? Do you genuinely enjoy talking a lot?” If not, listeners will pick up on the flatness within a few episodes and the project dies.

His prototype is Joe Rogan, who was so immersed in talking to weird people that “the guy would be doing it even if he had no audience. And he was doing it when he had no audience” — late-night Ustream, no one watching. The conclusion: marketing, business, and role are all a fit problem, a matching problem. Lean into specific knowledge, pick the medium that’s natural (Substack for long-form, X for short-form, video if you like making video), pick a business or co-founder where your natural mode lines up, and try everything until you hone in on what you’d do for free.

Highlights

”You have to be almost psychopath level at which you enjoy the thing”

“If you’re going to be the top at it, you have to be almost psychopath level at which you enjoy the thing.” — Naval Ravikant, 0:30

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”Joe Rogan was doing it when he had no audience”

“Someone like Joe Rogan really — he’s so immersed, he’s so into talking to all these weird people that he has on his podcast that the guy would be doing it even if he had no audience. And he was doing it when he had no audience, when he was on Ustream with just him and live streaming late at night on one random website.” — Naval Ravikant, 0:55

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”It is a fit problem. It is a matching problem.”

“You have to do what is very natural to you. And part of the trick is picking a business where the thing that is natural to you lines up nicely, or picking a role within that business, or picking a co-founder in that business. It is a fit problem. It is a matching problem.” — Naval Ravikant, 2:18

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Key Points

• Marketing is an open problem (0:00) - Videos, writing, tweets, parties, sandwich boards — all can work
• Pick a business congruent with the marketing you enjoy (0:00) - Most important alignment
• The “do you enjoy talking?” test for podcasts (0:30) - Asked of friends who want to start one for marketing
• Listeners detect insincerity within a few episodes (0:55) - “Doing the podcast equivalent of looking at their watch”
• Pick the medium that matches your form (1:31) - Substack for long-form, X for short-form, podcasts/Spaces for talkers, AI tools for video
• Or pick a co-founder (2:18) - Fit can be solved by team composition
• Unlimited venues, unlimited media (2:18) - The modern world’s gift to fit
• Be in the arena (2:18) - The first attempts will be wrong; that’s how you find the right one

Mentions

People

• Joe Rogan (0:55) - The exemplar: doing it when no one was watching, on Ustream

Products & Technologies

• Twitter Spaces (1:31) - Live conversational network
• Substack (1:31) - Long-form writing
• X (Twitter) (1:31) - Short-form writing
• Ustream (0:55) - Where Joe Rogan livestreamed before the audience
• AI video models (1:31) - “Make some video and you overlay onto it”

Surprising Quotes

“If you’re going to be the top at it, you have to be almost psychopath level at which you enjoy the thing.” — Naval Ravikant, 0:30

“It’s no coincidence he’s the top podcaster.” — Naval Ravikant, 1:31

“It is a fit problem. It is a matching problem.” — Naval Ravikant, 2:18

Transcript

Naval Ravikant: 0:00 Marketing is an open problem. People try to solve marketing in different ways. Some people will create videos, some people will write and or tweet, some people will literally stand outside with a sandwich board, some people will go make a whole bunch of friends and just throw parties and spread by word of mouth. Now, it may be the case that for your business, one of those is much better than the others, but the most important thing is picking a business that is congruent with whichever one you like to do.

Naval Ravikant: 0:30 So for example, I have a lot of friends approach me and say, “Hey, let’s start a podcast together,” and I’m like, “Do you genuinely enjoy talking? Do you genuinely enjoy talking a lot?” Because if you don’t, you’re not going to enjoy the process of podcasting, you’re not going to be the best at it, and they’re just trying to market. And so they start a podcast to do two or three episodes and then eventually they drop off. And they drop off because firstly, they don’t enjoy podcasting — I don’t mean enjoy a little bit, you have to enjoy it a lot. If you’re going to be the top at it, you have to be almost psychopath level at which you enjoy the thing.

Naval Ravikant: 0:55 And so they’ll record a few episodes and then their readers or their listeners will pick up on, “Actually, this person’s just asking a bunch of questions, kind of flat-faced, and doesn’t seem to really enjoy it,” and is doing the podcast equivalent of looking at their watch. Whereas someone like Joe Rogan really — he’s so immersed, he’s so into talking to all these weird people that he has on his podcast that the guy would be doing it even if he had no audience. And he was doing it when he had no audience, when he was on Ustream with just him and live streaming late at night on one random website.

Naval Ravikant: 1:31 So it’s no coincidence he’s the top podcaster. So when you’re marketing, you want to lean into your specific knowledge and into yourself. If you enjoy talking, then try podcasting. Maybe you enjoy talking in a more conversational tone, in which case you try a live network like a Twitter Spaces. Maybe you enjoy writing. If you like long-form writing, Substack. If you like short-form writing, X. If you like really long-form writing, then maybe a bunch of blog posts that turn into a book. If you enjoy making videos, then maybe you use one of the latest AI models and you make some video and you overlay onto it.

Naval Ravikant: 2:18 But you have to do what is very natural to you. And part of the trick is picking a business where the thing that is natural to you lines up nicely, or picking a role within that business, or picking a co-founder in that business. It is a fit problem. It is a matching problem. And the good news is, in the modern world, there are unlimited opportunities, there are unlimited people, there are unlimited venues, there are unlimited forms of media — there’s just an unlimited set of things to choose from. So how are you going to find the thing that you’re really good at? You’re going to try everything. And you’re going to try everything because you’re going to do — you’re going to be in the arena, you’re going to be trying to tackle and solve problems. So the first time you do it, you might do a whole bunch of things you don’t enjoy doing and you may not do them well, but eventually you’ll hone down on the thing that you really like to do and then you’ll hopefully find that fit.