OpenAI Trial: The 5 Most Surprising Moments

Summary

In this short bonus segment, Kevin Roose and Casey Newton break down their top five most surprising moments from the ongoing Elon Musk vs. OpenAI trial. The countdown starts at #5 with Sam Altman’s testimony about a “hair-raising chat” in which Musk, asked what would happen to OpenAI if he died, said he hadn’t thought about it much but “maybe I should pass it to my children.” As Casey quips, this turned the world’s most consequential AI company into a potential hereditary monarchy across “all 14” Musk kids. #4 is Helen Toner’s recorded deposition dragging then-CTO Mira Murati for being “strikingly unsupportive” and “remarkably passive” during the November 2023 firing of Sam Altman — capped by Toner’s instantly quotable line: “She was waiting to see which way the wind would blow, and she didn’t realize that she was the wind.”

#3 is Greg Brockman’s “immortal diary” — entries the OpenAI president was required to submit as trial exhibits, in which he wrote about his ambitions to build AGI, hit a billion-dollar net worth, and be respected for “what I do.” The hosts get into a bit about whether Musk’s lawyers calling it a “diary” instead of a “journal” is a sexist swipe, and Kevin offers operational advice: “A bound book with a lock on it like you had when you were a pre-teen… You have to burn it after reading. That’s on page one.” #2 is the “Jackass Trophy” — an actual trophy that a young Dario Amodei presented to an OpenAI employee Musk had called a jackass during a meeting, engraved “Never stop being a jackass for safety.” OpenAI is reportedly trying to use this as evidence that Musk didn’t really care about safety; Casey is unconvinced (“this feels like a legal strategy supplied by ChatGPT”) but supports the trial mainly as “a way to smuggle a bunch of gossip into the public record.”

#1 is Ilya Sutskever’s testimony, which the hosts call the spiciest moment. The former OpenAI chief scientist talked in riddles and parables, telling the judge that the difference between AI a decade ago and AI today is “like the difference between an ant and a cat,” and responding to a question about OpenAI’s compute needs with the now-iconic phrase: “If there’s no funding, there is no big computer.” Casey closes with a Hollywood-twist favorite — the revelation that Shivon Zilis, longtime Musk employee, mother of four of his children, and former OpenAI board member, had been functioning as Musk’s covert liaison inside OpenAI. Kevin’s deeper takeaway: in 2017, before any of this stuff really worked, all the players were writing down predictions about AGI dictators and global governance fights — and they were essentially correct about everything, even as they came to hate each other. He suspects this may be “the last great deposit of receipts” because today’s executives have learned to communicate only via Signal disappearing messages.

Highlights

”Pass it to my children”

“Altman asked Elon, ‘If you have control over OpenAI, what happens when you die?’ Musk reportedly responded, ‘I haven’t thought about it a ton, but maybe I should pass it to my children.’” — Kevin Roose, 0:16

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”She didn’t realize that she was the wind”

“She was waiting to see which way the wind would blow and she didn’t realize that she was the wind.” — Casey Newton quoting Helen Toner, 1:54

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”The immortal diary of Greg Brockman”

“A thing of nightmares is to have your private journal entries read aloud in a courtroom. That happened during this trial to OpenAI president and co-founder Greg Brockman, who was required to submit personal journal entries he maintained during the early years of OpenAI as exhibits in the trial. The entries included Brockman’s thoughts about his own ambition and his frustrations with Elon Musk.” — Kevin Roose, 2:18

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”Never stop being a jackass for safety”

“This trophy was presented to him by a plucky young safety executive named Dario Amodei… and the trophy shows the back half of a donkey and says on it, ‘Never stop being a jackass for safety.’” — Kevin Roose, 4:17

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”If there’s no funding, there is no big computer”

“I believe his exact quote was ‘if there’s no funding, there is no big computer.’ And he was really determined for there to be a big computer.” — Kevin Roose on Ilya Sutskever, 6:32

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”The last great deposit of receipts”

“This might be the last trial where like emails and written records play a big role. Like I feel like the companies and the people at the top of these companies have learned in the past 10 years like not to put anything in writing… this may be the last great deposit of receipts that we have in this world.” — Kevin Roose, 8:26

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Key Points

• The Musk vs. OpenAI trial is nearing its end (0:00) - Hard Fork’s top 5 most surprising moments countdown
• #5: Musk wanted to leave OpenAI to his children (0:16) - Altman testified about a “hair-raising chat” where Musk floated hereditary control
• #5b: “All 14 of them” (0:39) - Casey’s quip about Musk’s many children turning OpenAI into a “hereditary monarchy”
• #4: Helen Toner drags Mira Murati (1:12) - Recorded deposition calling Murati “strikingly unsupportive” and “remarkably passive” during Altman firing
• #4b: The “wind” quote (1:54) - Toner: “She was waiting to see which way the wind would blow and she didn’t realize that she was the wind”
• #3: Greg Brockman’s journals read in court (2:18) - Entries about wanting AGI, a billion-dollar net worth, and to be respected for “what I do”
• Diary vs. journal debate (3:27) - Hosts argue Musk’s lawyers call it a “diary” to embarrass Brockman with a “girl-coded” framing
• Best place to keep a journal: physical book with lock (3:55) - Kevin: “You have to burn it after reading. That’s on page one”
• #2: The Jackass Trophy (4:17) - Trophy reading “Never stop being a jackass for safety” presented to an OpenAI employee Musk called a jackass
• Trophy was presented by a young Dario Amodei (4:17) - “Plucky young safety executive who would recur on future seasons of the show”
• #2 weak as evidence (4:56) - Casey notes the trophy is being introduced to show Musk didn’t really care about safety, but it doesn’t actually track
• Trial as gossip smuggling (5:34) - Casey’s “conspiratorial belief” that the trial is a way to smuggle gossip into the public record
• #1: Ilya Sutskever’s parables (5:46) - Former chief scientist “talks in riddles and parables”
• Ant to cat: AI’s evolution (6:00) - Sutskever’s analogy for the difference between AI a decade ago vs. today
• “If there’s no funding, there is no big computer” (6:32) - Sutskever’s now-iconic compute-funding line
• Casey’s favorite: Shivon Zilis the mole (6:46) - Musk’s longtime employee and mother of four of his children, who served on the OpenAI board as a covert liaison
• 2017 predictions were eerily accurate (7:32) - Kevin’s deeper observation: founders correctly forecast AGI dictators and global governance fights before AI worked
• The last great deposit of receipts (8:26) - Kevin predicts future trials will have no email evidence — execs now use disappearing Signal messages
• Can’t destroy evidence if it never existed (9:09) - Kevin’s grimly funny closing line on corporate record-keeping

Mentions

Companies

• OpenAI (0:00) - Defendant in the Musk-instigated trial; the entire subject of the episode
• Anthropic (implicit) - Dario Amodei’s future company

Products & Technologies

• AGI (3:00) - What Brockman wrote about wanting to build in his journals
• Apple Notes / Google Doc (3:44) - Kevin’s joke about how Brockman shouldn’t have kept his “diary” in discoverable cloud notes
• Signal disappearing messages (implicit at 8:42) - The “disappearing” platforms Kevin says execs use now

People

• Elon Musk (0:00) - Plaintiff in the trial; suggested passing OpenAI to his children
• Sam Altman (0:16) - OpenAI CEO; testified about hair-raising chat with Musk
• Helen Toner (1:12) - Former OpenAI board member; dragged Mira Murati in deposition
• Mira Murati (1:12) - Former OpenAI CTO; subject of Toner’s “wind” quote
• Greg Brockman (2:18) - OpenAI president and co-founder; journals submitted as evidence
• Dario Amodei (4:17) - Anthropic CEO; presented the Jackass Trophy when he was at OpenAI
• Ilya Sutskever (5:46) - Former OpenAI chief scientist and co-founder; star of moment #1
• Shivon Zilis (6:46) - Longtime Musk employee, mother to four of his children, former OpenAI board member acting as Musk’s mole

Surprising Quotes

“Musk reportedly responded, ‘I haven’t thought about it a ton, but maybe I should pass it to my children.’” — Kevin Roose, 0:16

“She was waiting to see which way the wind would blow and she didn’t realize that she was the wind.” — Casey Newton quoting Helen Toner on Mira Murati, 1:54

“Dear Musk legal team, please sue Casey. I desperately need to see what he says in his journal about me.” — Casey Newton, 3:22

“If there’s no funding, there is no big computer.” — Kevin Roose quoting Ilya Sutskever, 6:32

“Can’t destroy evidence if it never existed.” — Kevin Roose, 9:09

“They were completely right about all of that, even though they all ended up hating each other.” — Kevin Roose, 7:32

Transcript

Kevin Roose: 0:00 Well Casey, the big trial between Elon Musk and OpenAI has been going on now for a couple weeks. It is nearing its end, and I thought we should do a breakdown of our top five juiciest drama moments from the trial so far.

Casey Newton: 0:15 Let’s get into it.

Kevin Roose: 0:16 Number five. Sam Altman testified on Tuesday of this week about what he called a hair-raising chat with Elon Musk. And in this chat, Altman asked Elon, ‘If you have control over OpenAI, what happens when you die?’ Musk reportedly responded, ‘I haven’t thought about it a ton, but maybe I should pass it to my children.’

Casey Newton: 0:39 All 14 of them? That’s going to be quite a board of directors this company has. You know what I love about this particular story is that I had seen some chatter earlier in the trial that the real reason that Elon Musk is pushing this is like he knows he’s not going to win, but he just wants to embarrass Sam. I don’t know what could be more embarrassing for Elon than the news that he was trying to turn OpenAI into a hereditary monarchy.

Kevin Roose: 1:03 New season of Succession just dropped. It’s kids with unpronounceable names vying for control of OpenAI.

Kevin Roose: 1:12 Alright, number four. This one was juicy. Helen Toner, former OpenAI board member, dragging Mira Murati. This was during the blip, the coup of Sam Altman that saw him fired and then rehired. In her recorded deposition, Toner essentially accused Mira Murati, who was at the time the company’s chief technology officer, of being either dense or insincere, as she described Murati as strikingly unsupportive, remarkably passive, and said, quote, ‘she seemed totally uninterested in telling her team that her conversations with us had been a significant factor in our decision to fire Sam.’

Casey Newton: 1:54 Yeah, so basically Mira, according to the testimony, had been sort of quietly supplying the board with a lot of information about Sam Altman that the board then used in its decision to fire him, and agreed, Mira did, to become the company’s interim CEO. But then when the whole thing happened, Mira was just sort of like very quiet and was like, ‘I don’t know what’s going on,’ and then eventually basically said that she opposed Sam’s removal, and that led to a great quote from Helen when she said, quote, ‘she was waiting to see which way the wind would blow and she didn’t realize that she was the wind.’

Kevin Roose: 2:18 Great quote. Put it on a bumper sticker. Alright, number three. This is the immortal diary of Greg Brockman. A thing of nightmares is to have your private journal entries read aloud in a courtroom. That happened during this trial to OpenAI president and co-founder Greg Brockman, who was required to submit personal journal entries he maintained during the early years of OpenAI as exhibits in the trial. The entries included Brockman’s thoughts about his own ambition and his frustrations with Elon Musk. You can read many excerpts of this online, but he is talking about how he wants to succeed at building the AGI, he wants to get to a billion dollars, presumably personal net worth.

Kevin Roose: 3:00 And that he wants to be respected for quote, “what I do.” Relatable King. You know, I have to say, it made me uncomfortable to find out that this poor man’s journal had been dragged into court. Like, you know, I also keep a journal and the thought that Elon Musk would be quizzing me about it on the witness stand someday sends a shiver down my spine.

Casey Newton: 3:22 Dear Musk legal team, please sue Casey. I desperately need to see what he says in his journal about me.

Kevin Roose: 3:27 Now let me ask you this. So I assume that Greg thinks of his journal as a journal, but Elon Musk’s lawyers and some press coverage has repeatedly called it a diary. Are they just doing that to embarrass Greg because diary is girl-coded?

Casey Newton: 3:42 Because I don’t like that. It’s a journal.

Kevin Roose: 3:44 Yeah, it’s a journal. I mean, the bizarre part to me is that you would just keep a journal in a discoverable place like Apple Notes or a Google Doc.

Casey Newton: 3:53 Well, what’s a non-discoverable place to keep it?

Kevin Roose: 3:55 A bound book with a lock on it like you had when you were a pre-teen.

Casey Newton: 4:00 And that just wouldn’t be subject to discovery because it was written down instead of stored in the cloud?

Kevin Roose: 4:04 You have to burn it after reading. That’s on page one, you know.

Casey Newton: 4:10 All right. Here’s Kevin Roose advocating for the destruction of evidence at trial.

Kevin Roose: 4:17 Number two. This is the famous jackass trophy. Unfortunately, we have not seen imagery of this, but this was a trophy that was presented to an OpenAI employee early in the company’s history after Elon Musk called him a jackass during a meeting. This trophy was presented to him by a plucky young safety executive named Dario Amodei, who would recur on future seasons of the show. And the trophy shows the back half of a donkey and says on it, “Never stop being a jackass for safety.”

Casey Newton: 4:56 My question is, as enjoyable as that story is, Kevin, why is this evidence at a trial? What is this supposed to be evidence of?

Kevin Roose: 5:05 I think they’re trying to introduce it on the OpenAI side to sort of gesture at the fact that Elon Musk did not seem to care about safety as much as he claimed.

Casey Newton: 5:15 But they’re like, “Look, you can tell he didn’t care about safety. Look at this jackass trophy that we made.”

Kevin Roose: 5:23 I don’t know if that’s really adding up for me.

Casey Newton: 5:25 Yeah, it doesn’t track exactly for me either. This feels like a legal strategy supplied by ChatGPT.

Kevin Roose: 5:31 Bring out the jackass trophy. Where’s that trophy?

Casey Newton: 5:34 I mostly think it’s very funny and it goes to one of my other sort of conspiratorial beliefs about this trial, which is that it’s just a way to smuggle a bunch of gossip into the public record.

Kevin Roose: 5:42 And we support that aspect.

Casey Newton: 5:43 We support that. It has been a true gift to journalists and historians.

Kevin Roose: 5:46 All right. Number one. The spiciest moment, or at least my favorite moment from the trial so far, was the testimony of Ilya Sutskever, former chief scientist and co-founder at OpenAI. A very quotable man who sort of talks in riddles and parables. And he had a very memorable answer to a question from the judge in the case about the difference between the AI systems of a decade ago and the AI systems of today. He said it was like the difference between an ant and a cat. He also responded to a question about OpenAI’s computing needs by saying that OpenAI needed more funding to build what he called quote “a big computer.”

Casey Newton: 6:29 And I just think that’s a beautiful phrase. I like big computer.

Kevin Roose: 6:32 I believe his exact quote was “if there’s no funding, there is no big computer.” Yes. And he was really determined for there to be a big computer.

Casey Newton: 6:40 And now we have it.

Kevin Roose: 6:41 Yep. Well, Casey, any other notes that I missed from the trial so far?

Casey Newton: 6:46 My other favorite moment of the trial concerned the testimony of Shivon Zilis, who is a longtime employee of Musk and mother to four of his children, who also served on the OpenAI board. And during this time became a kind of covert liaison between Musk and the OpenAI folks until it came out that she was the mother of his children and the OpenAI was like, “um, you have to leave the board now.” But like, that is a true Hollywood twist.

Kevin Roose: 7:21 Yeah, she was the mole for Elon inside OpenAI who was like ferreting him information and is no longer on the OpenAI board for reasons that I think are probably understandable.

Casey Newton: 7:31 Quite understandable.

Kevin Roose: 7:32 Yes. The thing that I found most interesting from this trial is that everyone knew that this technology was going to do exactly what it did. In like 2017, everyone was like, “this is going to become the most important technology in the world, there’ll be huge fights over who governs it and whether they become a global AGI dictator.” And they were putting this stuff all in writing. This was before any of this shit worked. It was like when AI could still basically barely complete a sentence, they were talking about how this would totally reshape global governance and politics and the economy. And they were completely right about all of that, even though they all ended up hating each other.

Casey Newton: 8:07 I think it, I mean, it is very interesting how much they were right about. And I think it probably speaks to the fact that they wrote it down that even they on some level had some difficulty believing that it would be true, you know what I mean? Like it all did still very much feel like sci-fi 10 years ago.

Kevin Roose: 8:26 They felt like they were playing a board game.

Casey Newton: 8:28 They were like, did they though? I mean, because they really did believe it. Or I think like most of the players involved really did believe it. So I don’t think it was a board game to them exactly, but it was all just in the realm of speculation.

Kevin Roose: 8:42 It also strikes me that this might be like the last trial where like emails and written records play a big role. Like I feel like the companies and the people at the top of these companies have learned in the past 10 years like not to put anything in writing. And so they do everything on like disappearing signals or whatever, and so this may be the last great deposit of receipts that we have in this world.

Casey Newton: 9:06 Yeah, companies are getting much better at destroying evidence.

Kevin Roose: 9:09 Can’t destroy evidence if it never existed.

Casey Newton: 9:12 And there you have it, those are our top moments from the Elon Musk OpenAI trial. We look forward to many more trials.

Kevin Roose: 9:21 Every day with you is a trial.

Casey Newton: 9:22 So I hear.