Europe’s Free Speech Failure and the “Censorship Industrial Complex” with Sarah B. Rogers

Summary

Jason and Sacks sit down with Sarah B. Rogers, Under Secretary for Public Diplomacy at the State Department, to discuss the growing divide between American and European approaches to free speech. Rogers explains her role in public diplomacy - building relationships not just between governments but between the U.S. government and foreign publics - and why this is newly critical in an era of declining trust in institutions.

The conversation focuses heavily on Europe’s Digital Services Act (DSA) and Online Safety Act (OSA), which Rogers characterizes as a form of “censorship tariff” on American tech companies. She argues these regulations, ostensibly about protecting users from “harmful content,” have become tools for suppressing legitimate political speech, particularly around sensitive topics like mass migration. Examples include German authorities pressuring platforms to remove criticism of migration policies and UK citizens being arrested for social media posts.

Rogers draws connections between European censorship efforts and the “Censorship Industrial Complex” that emerged in the United States during the Biden administration - NGOs, academic centers, and government agencies coordinating to pressure platforms to suppress speech. She emphasizes that the Trump administration is committed to free speech both domestically and in pushing back against European overreach. The discussion concludes with optimism that giving freedom the benefit of the doubt, even with risks like AI deepfakes, is preferable to a censorship regime.

Highlights

”Public Diplomacy: Government to People, Not Government to Government”

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“Diplomacy traditionally concerns the relationship between the American government and foreign governments. But public diplomacy is different - it addresses the relationship between the American government and foreign publics. That’s become very important as trust in institutions has declined.” — Sarah B. Rogers, 2:22

”The DSA is a Censorship Tariff on American Companies”

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“The Digital Services Act is essentially a censorship tariff. Europe is forcing American tech companies to censor speech that would be protected under the First Amendment or face massive fines. It’s protectionism disguised as user safety.” — Sarah B. Rogers, 13:44

”Mass Migration Criticism Being Censored in Germany”

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“In Germany, if you criticize mass migration policies on social media, the government can pressure platforms to remove your posts or even have you arrested. This is legitimate political speech being criminalized. It’s deeply troubling for those of us who value free expression.” — Sarah B. Rogers, 16:55

”Understanding the Censorship Industrial Complex”

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“The Censorship Industrial Complex is this network of NGOs, academic centers, government agencies, all coordinating to identify ‘misinformation’ and pressure platforms to remove it. But who decides what’s misinformation? Usually it’s just speech they disagree with politically.” — Sarah B. Rogers, 34:42

Key Points

• Public diplomacy role (2:22) - Building relationships between U.S. government and foreign publics, not just governments
• Trust in institutions declining (4:15) - Makes public diplomacy more important than traditional state-to-state relations
• Europe’s censorship laws (6:30) - DSA and OSA mandating content moderation with massive fines for non-compliance
• “Harmful content” definition (9:15) - Vague standards allowing suppression of legitimate political speech
• DSA as censorship tariff (13:44) - Forcing American companies to censor First Amendment-protected speech
• Mass migration debate suppression (16:55) - European governments criminalizing criticism of immigration policies
• German social media arrests (18:40) - Citizens jailed for posts that would be protected speech in America
• Major fines against US companies (20:25) - Billions in potential penalties for insufficient content moderation
• AI deepfakes concern (22:59) - Used as justification for expanded censorship powers
• Giving freedom benefit of doubt (26:30) - Better to err on side of free speech than suppress legitimate expression
• Biden-era censorship (28:15) - Previous administration’s pressure on platforms to remove “misinformation”
• Censorship Industrial Complex structure (34:42) - Network of NGOs, academics, government agencies coordinating suppression
• Trump administration commitment (39:20) - Defending free speech domestically and pushing back on European overreach

Mentions

People

• Sarah B. Rogers - Under Secretary for Public Diplomacy, State Department
• Jason Calacanis - Interviewer
• David Sacks - Co-interviewer, White House AI & Crypto Advisor

Laws & Regulations

• DSA (Digital Services Act) (6:30) - European Union content moderation law
• OSA (Online Safety Act) (7:15) - United Kingdom’s online content regulation
• First Amendment (13:55) - U.S. Constitution’s free speech protection

Organizations

• State Department (0:00) - Rogers’ agency
• Censorship Industrial Complex (34:42) - Network of NGOs, academics, government agencies coordinating speech suppression

Concepts

• Public Diplomacy (2:22) - Government-to-people relationships vs traditional government-to-government
• Censorship Tariff (13:44) - Characterization of DSA as protectionist measure disguised as safety regulation

Surprising Quotes

“When my friends congratulated me on the nomination, they then quietly asked: what is public diplomacy? Most people have no idea this job exists.” — Sarah B. Rogers, 2:40

“In Europe, you can be arrested for a social media post criticizing government policy. In America, that’s protected speech. That’s the fundamental divide.” — Sarah B. Rogers, 19:10

“The Biden administration weaponized the government against American citizens’ speech. We’re dismantling that apparatus.” — Sarah B. Rogers, 29:30

“Europe is trying to export its censorship regime to America through fines on our tech companies. We’re not going to let that happen.” — David Sacks, 21:15

Transcript

0:00 David and I are staying in a 300-year-old house and we’ve both smashed our head on the beams twice already. But this is both our first Davos, David. It’s our first Davos. We’ve been here for 24 hours and any first impressions here. It’s interesting. You know, we’re staying very far away. Yeah, they didn’t apparently they didn’t want you to be part of this. They didn’t want me too close.

[Full transcript available covering discussion of public diplomacy role, European censorship laws (DSA/OSA), mass migration debate suppression, Biden-era censorship apparatus, Censorship Industrial Complex, and Trump administration’s free speech commitment]