Senators John Fetterman and Dave McCormick: Bipartisanship, Money in DC, Datacenters, Graham Platner

Summary

Pennsylvania’s two senators — Democrat John Fetterman and Republican Dave McCormick — join the Besties for a rare joint appearance built around a single premise: “country over party.” Both were the only candidates in their respective cycles to flip a Senate seat, and both did it by assembling the same working-families coalition of electricians, pipe fitters, and steamfitters that also broke for Trump. They describe Pennsylvania as a microcosm of the country — two big blue urban centers, a wide red rural belt, nineteen electoral votes — where voters simply expect their politicians to find common ground on energy, fentanyl, drone technology, and antisemitism.

The conversation’s throughline is the intersection of AI, energy, and blue-collar jobs. McCormick recaps his $92 billion Energy and Innovation Summit and argues data centers are economic engines — citing Homer City’s coal-to-gas conversion, US Steel, Eli Lilly, and a welder shortage where late-teens tradespeople clear $100k. Fetterman repeatedly breaks with his own party, calling a data-center moratorium a “China-first” policy and refusing to treat AI as “a scourge or a cancer.” Both frame opposition as a mix of genuine not-knowing and a well-funded misinformation campaign they compare directly to the 15-year fight over fracking.

The senators also reckon with the failures of governance: record-low institutional trust, two historic government shutdowns, an existential debt problem, and the K-shaped economy that has made the last decade “the greatest 10 years in the history of humanity for those who have assets” while a $52,000 median-income Pennsylvanian sees no path to get ahead. Fetterman recants his old support for killing the filibuster (“we were so wrong”), condemns Maine candidate Graham Platner, and insists he would rather be primaried than lie. They close on money in politics — a combined ~$500 million spent on their two races, mostly to destroy each other’s reputations.

Highlights

”We fucking love it” — Fetterman recants on the filibuster

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“The entire Democratic party, including myself, we were so wrong about the filibuster… And now Democrats, we all wanted to get rid of it in ‘22 and 2025, we fucking love it. And now it forces people to work together with both sides.” — John Fetterman, 10:25

”That’s a China-first kind of policy”

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“My party is driving for a moratorium for data centers. Like, I mean, do you think China doesn’t love that?… Do you want America to build that chassis or do you want the Chinese to do that?” — John Fetterman, 35:07

The greatest 10 years for anyone with assets

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“The median income in Pennsylvania is $52,000 a year… a mill of 2,000 people that got gutted. It’s down to 100 people… the last 10 years has been the greatest 10 years in the history of humanity for those who have assets.” — John Fetterman, 13:54

The blue-collar boom and the welder shortage

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“The most secure job in Pennsylvania right now is a seasoned welder… They’re making more than 100 grand a year in these sites and they can’t hire quick enough. They can’t find enough people to meet the demand.” — Dave McCormick, 37:25

”Could you imagine if either one of us described an American soldier…”

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“Could you imagine if either one of us described an American soldier as a dumb motherfucker that deserves to die? Or he described our army as absolute trash?… And that’s a viable candidate now.” — John Fetterman, 21:25

”$300 million were spent to destroy our reputations”

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“Think what $300 million could do for Pennsylvania or for people. That was spent to destroy reputations. You know, you’re terrible, I’m terrible. That’s the absurdity of the American politics right now.” — Dave McCormick, 42:34

Key Points

• Country over party (0:27) - Both senators voted to keep the government open; they disagree where they disagree but look for common ground where they can.
• The most consequential moment in humankind (1:34) - McCormick argues AI’s effect on life sciences, defense, and energy creates the anxiety that fuels polarization.
• Bipartisan wins (1:34) - They’ve collaborated on energy policy, the fentanyl crisis, antisemitism, and drone technology.
• Only two seats flipped (2:49) - Fetterman notes they were the only two candidates in their cycles to flip a seat, by rejecting extreme views.
• Pennsylvania as microcosm (4:43) - Two blue urban centers, red rural areas, nineteen electoral votes; the same working-families coalition backed Fetterman, McCormick, and Trump.
• Rank-and-file split from union leadership (4:43) - Two-thirds of electricians, pipe fitters, and steamfitters voted McCormick even as national unions endorsed the other side.
• Institutional distrust (7:34) - Jason presses on record-low approval, $40 trillion debt, and inflation; Fetterman ties gas prices to holding Iran accountable.
• TDS defines the party (9:00) - Fetterman: “Trump comes out for ice cream and lazy Sundays, we’re going to hate that shit.”
• The filibuster reversal (10:25) - Fetterman credits Manchin and Sinema and now calls the filibuster a hill he’d die on.
• Rebuilding institutional trust (11:41) - McCormick argues trust is restored through personal conduct and bipartisan legislation.
• Fentanyl deaths down 60% (12:43) - Pennsylvania overdose deaths fell from ~4,000 to ~1,600 year over year.
• The K-shaped economy (13:54) - $52,000 median income, a gutted mill, and no path to get ahead for the bottom half.
• Investment accounts and school choice (15:00) - McCormick pitches $1,700 school-choice contributions as “Andrew Carnegie brought to present day.”
• Does government spending hurt mobility? (16:03) - Friedberg argues freer markets and less government intervention drive affordability and mobility.
• Two historic shutdowns (17:08) - Government collectively shut for over 120 days; Fetterman refuses to participate.
• Bad ideas refuse to die (18:00) - Fetterman warns against the socialism/communism drift and defends billionaire job creators.
• Graham Platner (19:52) - Fetterman condemns the Maine candidate’s Nazi tattoo, sexting revelations, and calling a soldier “a dumb motherfucker.”
• The lurch to the left (21:53) - Sacks argues mainstream Democrats campaigning in Maine validate socialism and antisemitism.
• Israel as betrayal (23:04) - Fetterman calls anti-Israel positioning a “profound betrayal” that has isolated him in his party.
• Getting primaried (25:39) - Fetterman says he votes the Democratic line 93% of the time but won’t lie to keep his seat.
• 100,000 constituent outreaches a week (28:45) - McCormick describes rising data-center calls and the $92 billion Energy and Innovation Summit.
• Homer City conversion (30:00) - A 4.4 GW coal plant converting to natural gas, with 3.4 GW to a data center complex and 1 GW back to the grid.
• The data-center covenant (30:35) - McCormick lays out what townships should get: surplus energy, closed-loop water, tax base, infrastructure.
• Fracking parallel (31:29) - A 15-year misinformation fight now has ~80% support; the same playbook is hitting data centers.
• Energy is national security (31:54) - Fetterman refuses to become “a party of Luddites.”
• Six to eight months ahead of China (35:07) - Fetterman frames the moratorium as handing the AI race to China.
• The blue-collar boom (36:21) - US Steel, Eli Lilly, Hanwha shipyard; four buckets of jobs and two logistics jobs per data-center job.
• AI vs. data centers conflated (40:05) - McCormick notes far-left and far-right converging in an anti-AI horseshoe.
• Money in politics (41:40) - McCormick’s race cost $500 million; both warn ‘26 and ‘28 will make it look quaint.

Mentions

Companies

• US Steel (37:25) - Building a next-generation mill in Pennsylvania.
• Eli Lilly (37:25) - Building a new plant in the state.
• Hanwha (37:25) - Investing in the Philadelphia shipyard.
• Homer City (30:00) - 4.4 GW coal plant transitioning to natural gas to power a data center complex.

Products & Technologies

• AI / data centers (3:00) - The central technology thread; framed as national security and a blue-collar boom.
• Fracking / shale (31:29) - Pennsylvania’s fourth-largest natural gas reserves, used as the analog for the data-center fight.
• Working Families Tax Cut Act (15:00) - Contains the investment-accounts and $1,700 school-choice provisions McCormick champions.
• Drone technology (1:34) - Cited as one of the senators’ bipartisan collaboration areas.

People

• Graham Platner (19:52) - Maine Democratic candidate criticized over a Nazi tattoo and sexting revelations.
• Josh Shapiro (23:42) - Pennsylvania governor cited as a positive counter-example and summit attendee.
• Joe Manchin & Kyrsten Sinema (10:25) - Credited by Fetterman for defending the filibuster.
• Bob Casey (4:43) - McCormick’s 2024 opponent, endorsed by national unions.
• President Trump (4:43) - Shares the working-families coalition; attended the energy summit; invoked in the McCain rhetoric exchange.
• John McCain (24:17) - Jason argues Trump’s “not a war hero” remark seeded today’s rhetoric.
• Jeff Bezos (19:19) - Fetterman uses him as an example of a private citizen who shouldn’t be scapegoated.
• Chuck Schumer & Elizabeth Warren (21:53) - Cited by Sacks as mainstream Democrats campaigning in Maine.
• Bernie Sanders (24:55) - Referenced by Friedberg as the powerful activist wing that could primary Fetterman.
• Andrew Carnegie (15:36) - McCormick’s historical model for private wealth funding opportunity.

Surprising Quotes

“It’s probably the most consequential moment in all of our lifetimes. And in fact, I think it might be the most consequential moment in humankind, which is a big statement.” — Dave McCormick, 1:34

“Our party is defined by the opposition of whatever he comes out for. I’ve said Trump comes out for ice cream and lazy Sundays, we’re going to hate that shit.” — John Fetterman, 9:00

“Thank God we had people that stood there, whether it’s Senator Manchin or Senator Sinema… history has vindicated their wisdom.” — John Fetterman, 10:25

“It takes it out of the government, it circumvents the government… It’s sort of Andrew Carnegie brought to present day.” — Dave McCormick, 15:36

“The most secure job in Pennsylvania right now is a seasoned welder.” — Dave McCormick, 37:25

Transcript

David Sacks: 0:00 Now a look at the state of Pennsylvania. It’s one of the most important states in this presidential race.

David Friedberg: 0:06 Both of Pennsylvania’s senators, Democrat John Fetterman and Republican Dave McCormick, voted in favor of the bill.

John Fetterman: 0:12 In this situation, we both agreed that shutting our government down is wrong for our commonwealth and for our nation.

Dave McCormick: 0:19 So we’re looking for ways to find common ground. And when we disagree, we disagree, but when we can agree, we agree.

John Fetterman: 0:27 Our votes are about country over party at this point.

Dave McCormick: 0:29 Well, we’re trying to set a good example because we have lots of disagreements, but we trust each other, we like one another, and we look for ways to work together.

Jason Calacanis: 0:40 I thought the best way to kick this off was to actually give both of you a few moments to just say what’s on your mind. And so I think in the rules of parliamentary decorum, Senator Fetterman as a senior sitting senator from Pennsylvania, maybe you can start.

John Fetterman: 0:54 I’m proud to call Senator McCormick a good friend. And how things are very more polarized and how I refuse to engage in the kinds of extremism. And we’re going to fight together for Pennsylvania and for our nation right now. And we’re going to continue to have conversations like this, whether in Pennsylvania or here. So we have to find a better way forward through a lot of the circumstances.

Jason Calacanis: 1:33 Dave?

Dave McCormick: 1:34 Yeah, I think, I mean, one of the benefits of being in a place like Pennsylvania is that the voters expect us really to find ways to work together. And if you put this moment in perspective, I think it’s probably the most consequential moment in all of our lifetimes. And in fact, I think it might be the most consequential moment in humankind, which is a big statement. So much change is happening, it’s artificial intelligence, of course, but it’s really how that’s affecting everything: life sciences, defense, energy. It’s a moment of enormous change, and that change creates a lot of anxiety that lends itself to polarization and extremes. And so if there was ever a time where it’s more important to find ways to work together, it’s now. And so we’ve found ways to work together on everything from energy policy to fentanyl, the fentanyl crisis, to anti-Semitism in Pennsylvania and across the country, to drone technology. And these are issues that are of such consequence that you can’t get there by just being with your team. You have to be able to find common ground, and we’ve really looked for ways to do that.

John Fetterman: 2:49 Yeah, I think he could confirm. Pennsylvania keeps you honest now. And now, I’d like to remind everybody that we are the only two people in our respective cycles that flipped… Both parties want that. We want to flip seats. It’s like, well, you know, we’ve done that because I think we’ve rejected the extreme kinds of views, and now it’s better to work together for Pennsylvania or for our country for right now. And AI is really, really important, and that will sometimes put me at odds with the direction that the Democratic Party seems to be moving in that. So now, a moratorium for data centers—for me, that’s a China-first kind of policy for that. I’m going to continue to push back that. I’m not going to describe that as a scourge. I’m going to describe that as an incredible new opportunity. And now, you know, my friend, he organized an incredible symposium in Western Pennsylvania that brought AI together and energy, and that’s two parts of things Pennsylvania really brings to the table in this very, very important conversation.

David Friedberg: 3:59 I think that we’re at this point now where, is it fair to say as goes Pennsylvania, as goes the rest of the country? In the sense that if you can find common ground in the state on these very thorny issues, maybe the rest of the country can find ground. And the vice versa is also true: if you guys can’t find resolution, what are the odds of California and West Virginia making it up, finding resolution? So what is it like, a day in the life in the US Senate, trying to find these compromises? Because from our perspective, outside in, a lot of the time it just seems like nothing is happening. Dave.

Dave McCormick: 4:34 Yeah, I think if you step back, I know we look very similar, but we have many similar backgrounds…

John Fetterman: 4:38 We do?

Dave McCormick: 4:39 We have…

John Fetterman: 4:40 What’s the difference?

Dave McCormick: 4:43 We have similar backgrounds in the sense we both grew up in rural Pennsylvania and had similar childhoods. John went into public service; I left, went to West Point, went to the military. But we both came back from those rural backgrounds. But what’s interesting in Pennsylvania is nineteen electoral votes, and it’s a microcosm of the country. You have these two big urban centers, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, which are mostly Democrat. You have these rural areas that are mostly red, mostly Republican. And you’ve got to build a coalition across those to win. So ironically, a lot of the same people that voted for Senator Fetterman voted for me and voted for President Trump. And that’s the coalition you have to build. And in particular, it is a working families coalition. So the thing that’s ironic is that even though all the national unions would have endorsed Kamala Harris and Bob Casey, my opponent, the rank and file—two-thirds of the rank and file, the electricians, the pipe fitters, the steamfitters—voted for me. Same with him; they voted for him. So we actually, even though we… have a lot of differences in our parties, we have come together around that coalition. And that coalition includes a very significant Latino turnout, a very significant African American turnout, the highest African American turnout in 2024 in the last 30 years. And so, that coalition, I think is up for grabs. Who wins that coalition in Pennsylvania and who wins it in the country, I think will dictate the future to a large degree in 2028 and beyond. And so that’s what we’re working on together because we’re trying to build that coalition to do good things together in Pennsylvania.

Jason Calacanis: 6:33 The Senate is at an all-time low in terms of approval rating. We have the lowest approval rating of a president in history after Biden, who was extremely low rated. You guys can’t control the debt. The American populace believe we’d be in a golden age right now, they’re not seeing it. Inflation is soaring. The president seems to be running amok, has no check in the house, and you guys are responsible—

David Sacks: 7:05 Tell us, tell us what you really think.

Jason Calacanis: 7:08 Other than, other than that Mrs. Lincoln. Well, and 40 trillion dollars in debt and you’re spending more than ever. So the American people, I think, are extremely frustrated with both parties. It’s great to see you guys come together, but what are you going to do to bring back some balance between the branches of the government? Because this does not seem to be going in the right direction for anybody but the people in this room, which is to say the top 10 percent of our society.

John Fetterman: 7:34 Well, and I mean for me, if you reference inflation is soaring, well, just just recently, that’s primarily driven by energy prices right now. Now, why are those energy prices high? Well, because the president decided to hold Iran accountable. And now I’m the only Democrat that actually agrees with that. That was not, that was not a radical idea for a Democrat. Every single person running for president as a Democrat said we must never allow Iran to acquire a nuclear bomb. And now we have the opportunity to hold them accountable. Why? That’s why I continue to vote and and again against these war powers act now too. So for inflation, yes, now, absolutely no one thinks a five dollars a gallon is is great, but if you allow Iran to become nuclear, you know, that’s going to seem quaint, you know, at five dollars a gallon holding them to. So what’s driving this economic conversation overall right now? So for me, I think what’s most important now, turn everything as a partisan thing and that’s the danger where if we despise Trump more than we are concerned about Iran becoming a nuclear power, that will have profound implications for not just in that region, but all over. for and a global stage for right now. That’s the difficulty moving forward now. I’ve said this in the podcast, you know, for All-In. I, you know, who’s the leader’s party? I’m like that’s TDS 100%. You know, our party is defined by the opposition of whatever he comes out for. I’ve said he Trump comes out for ice cream and lazy Sundays, we’re we’re going to hate that shit. You know, and we’re going to vote it down.

John Fetterman: 9:26 Now, we all have a bandwidth and we all have a platform. You know, I feel like you have to discriminate. I don’t care about the ballroom. If you want to build it, sure, great. I was there for the White House correspondents’ dinner and I saw how dangerous that was for for our leadership. But I don’t care about the reflecting pool. But now we can’t stop talking about all this other kind of shit so we can really focus on thing that’s more important when now it’s become all just distract- distracted by these small small ball games.

Jason Calacanis: 9:58 Dave, is there a path to resolution? I mean, like, you guys are going to be forced to confront the filibuster, which is this critical bulwark that sort of leaves some sort of attempt at finding common ground out there. But there’s a lot of pressure to end it. I think Senator Fetterman, you’ve said you’d be supportive of ending the filibuster. Is that where we’re going to just total tribalism?

John Fetterman: 10:21 Yeah, let’s talk about the filibuster. Let’s talk about that. The entire Democratic party, including myself, we were so wrong about the filibuster. In my cycle in 2020, every single Democrat identified, we have to we have to eliminate the filibuster. Seems like it makes sense now. And thank God, thank God we had people that stood there, whether it’s Senator Manchin or Senator Sinema, you know, history has vindicated their wisdom to do that thing. And now Democrats, we all wanted to get rid of it in ‘22 and 2025, we fucking love it. And now it forces people to work together with both sides. You know, if you turn the Senate into a smaller version of the House and majority majority rules, now that would have profound profound implications for now. So someone that would be the first person to announce, ‘Hey, I was so wrong about that.’ Oh, that’s one of the kinds of hill I would die on now to defend the filibuster, how important it is to the Senate, but also Senate for the minority rights, whoever that happens to be in in that time. You know, that’s what’s so critical what the filibuster is to governance here.

Dave McCormick: 11:41 Well, I would say, um, first of all, Congress, but lots of institutions right now have very low public approval, very low trust. That’s a huge problem. It’s across it’s across all areas, the church, public officials, business, in many cases. So we’ve got to rebuild trust in our institutions. institutions and one of the ways you do that is through your own personal conduct. So one of the things we can do is try to set the example. Uh, if you look at my voting and his voting, I - I am an unapologetic conservative. I vote as a conservative. At the same time, that doesn’t mean you can’t work together. So we look for every opportunity for bipartisan legislation. So I’ve got more bipartisan legislation than anybody. We’ve collaborated on dozens of things together because you can do both. And the filibuster, I mean, it is frustrating as a business person, I was in business for 25 years, so frustrating the way - the pace of how slowly things move. But I do think it creates the requirement, the impetus, to get things done. And I would disagree with you. I think a lot of big things have been done. I think if you look at the energy agenda, we can’t win the AI race without energy, and uh, we’ve made huge progress in energy. I’m hoping we’re going to get permitting reform, which would be the biggest economic lever we could possibly get done over the next six months or the next two and a half years. Um, we’ve closed the border, we’ve stopped the flow of fentanyl. We had 4,000 people who died in Pennsylvania in the last year of the Biden administration; it’s 1,600 this year. It’s down 60%. Those same statistics nationally. And then there’s huge intractable problems like the debt and the deficit, which are existential, that we’re not dealing with. And that’s not a product so much of the filibuster or not the filibuster. That’s a product of the polarization of our country and both sides taking advantage of anybody willing to - to look at a problem in a - in a hard way.

Jason Calacanis: 13:13 But my question was though about the bottom half of the country in the K-shaped economy we’re in, and how it’s not working, and you guys are phenomenally unpopular with that group of Americans. So is there a way to make this economy…

Dave McCormick: 13:21 You talk about wealth concentration?

Jason Calacanis: 13:22 Yeah, wealth concentration, the bottom half is not happy with - on both sides.

John Fetterman: 13:54 No, no. See, it’s a huge - no, it’s a huge problem. And I - I don’t think I listened carefully last night. I mean, I just want to tell you, uh, that is a huge, huge problem that’s growing. The median income in Pennsylvania is $52,000 a year. When you guys say AI or AI anxiety, I mean, these - these folks, they’ve been down this road once before when a bunch of smart, rich people said we got the answer, it’s called globalization. And what happened in my hometown is there was a mill of 2,000 people that got gutted. It’s down to 100 people. So there’s enormous anxiety, but it’s because there’s no path to getting ahead. And everybody in this room, um, the last 10 years has been the greatest 10 years in the history of humanity for those who have assets.

Jason Calacanis: 14:37 So do you have a plan?

John Fetterman: 14:38 Yeah, well there’s - there’s gotta be a number of plans.

Jason Calacanis: 14:41 What is it?

John Fetterman: 14:43 Because it’s not just going to be me, it’s going to be us. Because right now, I’m - listen, I am a beneficiary of capitalism. I have been wildly fortunate because of capitalism. But we are - we’re going to lose capitalism unless we find a combination of a ways to address it. So what are the ways? The…

Dave McCormick: 15:00 The investment accounts is a perfect way, right? Where you are building opportunity for the next generation. The um the school choice provision in the working families tax cut act. $1,700, everybody in this room can give $1,700 every year. Billions of dollars that are going to go into um school choice for for making sure everybody has equal quality of opportunity. If you don’t do that at maximum scale and this moment leaves the majority of Americans behind, we’re not going to be able to get anything done.

David Friedberg: 15:33 Spend more money on programs.

Dave McCormick: 15:36 Yes, spend more money, but not spend more money, but spend more money in giving people opportunities. So the reason those two accounts are great, it takes it out of the government, it circumvents the government. It’s based on incentives and uh choice by people that have wealth. Um it’s uh it’s sort of Andrew Carnegie uh brought to present day. Take that wealth, put it in the hands of those who will benefit from it, but it’s your choice. It’s not dict- dictated by the government. I think that’s going to have to be part of the answer.

David Friedberg: 16:03 Does anyone in Congress subscribe to the notion that I think is rooted in you know um empiricism that the more we spend, the harder it is for people to have economic mobility? You know, and I think that there’s a simplified notion that government has to play a role in driving people’s progress. And the truth is, the more government intervenes in markets, the more inefficient and the more expensive those markets get, and therefore the more inaccessible wealth and value creation is for any individual. And the freer the market, the less the government intervenes, the less the government is spending, the less the government is buying, the better things get for people generally speaking. And it seems to me every time I visit DC, I leave profoundly unhappy because I meet with people in Congress and this is a notion that seems to be diametrically opposed to their viewpoints that everything is about doing more for people, government needs to do more on both sides of the aisle versus if the government did less, things would get more affordable, things would get more accessible and people would have greater economic mobility.

John Fetterman: 17:08 Well, I mean, you know, talk about the the the government. Now, we had not just one, we had two shutdowns. Both were historic in terms of their length. You know, we couldn’t just agree on very basic things. And now we’ve shut the government down collectively for over uh 120 days or whatever it is now. And that’s one of the things as a Democrat I refuse to engage in that thing. If that’s a core responsibility as a senator, keep our government open and for the love of God, find a way to agree enough to keep things open and put things at risk and make our country less less safe. You know, um proud to be a capitalist. And uh capitalism is the the one system that has proven to raise lives’ standard of humans across the globe, you know, that. And now people in my party or now… Now we’re having bad ideas refused to die and now we’re talking about socialism and communism right now. We have, we have candidates now that, ‘I am a communist’, these things. And it’s like, mmm, that seems interesting. You know, what’s your point now? Talk to anyone that’s had to live under those kinds of regime. Now, they’re all absolute capitalists right now and that’s, that’s absolutely the fact. That the market will has fixed a lot of these kinds of problems, you know, and I’m not terrified by AI.

John Fetterman: 18:30 Am I concerned about it? 100% right now and whether the myths and and other concerns about mass hacking and weaponizing it that way, you know, that’s coming and now I think that should belong to America. You know, that, you know, America should build that chassis. And now that’s why if we turn my party into where AI is the scourge or the cancer, now I refuse to reject that because it’s going to transform the world. Now, it can come from us or it can come from China. Whose side are you gonna be in? And a lot of the people that oppose that, now, a lot of that opposition is funded by a lot of these groups that are aligned with CCP. So that’s part of the danger right now in town. So that’s a dangerous time right now. And like Democrats now, my party, oh, the problems are billionaires. Oh, but we love the billionaires that fund, you know, our kinds of views and our views and all that too. Uh, I don’t target people, you know, people, you know, call out Bezos or whatever. It’s like, you don’t, don’t do that. Don’t call out private citizens, identify them as the problem. You know, they create jobs. If you’ve never created a job, don’t criticize people that that have really changed our, our economy for the better, I honestly.

Jason Calacanis: 19:52 Why is Graham Platner doing so well in the polls? This is a candidate that has a literal Nazi tattoo on his chest.

David Sacks: 19:58 Yeah, no.

Jason Calacanis: 19:59 And what does history tell us comes next if he wins? If a candidate like that can win, what does that tell us?

John Fetterman: 20:08 Yeah, well when I, when I was a kid, if someone had a Nazi tattoo, you probably could call them a Nazi sympathizer, you know? And so someone now, and now just yesterday we discovered that he was sexting with up to a dozen women. And now Democrats now, some are saying, well what’s the big problem, you know? That’s, you know, they’re constantly just ignoring a lot of these things.

John Fetterman: 20:35 Um, and now this is a guy that just a couple of years, a couple years ago described an American soldier in a firefight with the Taliban… ‘dumb motherfucker that doesn’t deserve to live’. That’s his words. Who does that? Who lurks on there and you know he’s really a tough guy behind a keyboard and I can’t explain other than that it’s a backlash to how partisan things are, someone like that should have been in this race right now. Now, uh, so here we are, you know, a guy that was text- sexting up to a dozen women, you know, he’s getting his swallow on, and now we’re kind of just, oh, what’s the big deal? Why not confront that and just call that out? And that’s- that’s the danger if now these- these kinds of views…

John Fetterman: 21:25 Could you imagine- could you imagine if either one of us described an American soldier as a dumb motherfucker that deserves to die? Or he described the- our army as absolute trash, absolute trash? He described American army as absolute trash. Um, and that’s a viable candidate now, and that’s- that’s a bizarre place to live right now as a Democrat.

Jason Calacanis: 21:51 If he wins, what happens? What does that tell us about where we’re headed?

David Sacks: 21:53 Well look at what- I mean what’s happening there is- I mean there’s problems on both parties, but certainly what you’ve seen on the left is two things. I think it’s indisputable. One is a migration to these terrible ideas of socialism and Marxism and so forth. But in addition to that, this really rise of anti-semitism and hatred. And the tell here of how pervasive it is, is the people who are now campaigning in Maine, Chuck Schumer, Elizabeth Warren, these are mainstream Democrats that have now lurched so far to the left. And I think- I think this is going to be- if those candidates win and that becomes validation of the viability of that stream of thinking in the Democratic party, I think it’s entirely horribly unhealthy for America. Ironically the best thing we want if we’re Republicans is a strong Democratic party that keeps us honest and keeps us in check with good ideas. And uh and that’s not happening. And uh as I said we have problems on both sides, but I think that lurch to the left is really frightening, a frightening thing.

Jason Calacanis: 23:01 Well and let’s face- and you just brought up Israel.

John Fetterman: 23:04 You know, that’s a profound betrayal from our party on- on Israel. You know, the people that are winning a lot of these elections, you know, one of their signature view is anti-anti-Israel and borderline just, you know, raw anti-semitism from a lot of these candidates now too. And that’s- that’s exactly where we- where we are. Um and now that has isolated me in the party and just calling that what that is. I mean that’s- that’s dangerous. And now uh that’s where- one of the things that we happen to agree on. Uh that’s the right side of history for me.

David Friedberg: 23:42 I mean maybe one of the best things that can happen is Shapiro continues to do well in Pennsylvania. Irrespective of which party you align with, a prominent Jew winning in Pennsylvania, running that state well is a very good sign actually for the rest of the country that there’s common ground and that anti-semitism is-

Jason Calacanis: 24:00 Josh is much more in check than the perception. Shapiro we had also on… Josh I think is fantastic.

Chamath Palihapitiya: 24:05 And he, you know, has a lot of disagreement about us maybe going into this war and you know, maybe being egged into doing it.

Jason Calacanis: 24:17 And by the way, Fetterman, if you’re looking or Friedberg, if you’re looking for the source of why people feel comfortable saying these terrible things, you can look no further than Trump and what he said about McCain being a war hero. That started this actual, this rhetoric, and now everybody wants to one-up it. He said he’s not a war hero and he got captured. That’s where this started. Sacks?

David Sacks: 24:41 Oh please. You’re gonna blame Trump for the fact that a Democratic candidate in Maine has a swastika tattooed on his arm?

Jason Calacanis: 24:48 No, the rhetoric. No, the rhetoric. It started with Trump.

David Sacks: 24:51 We’re in TDS land. We’re in TDS land. But fortunately we’re not interviewing you, J-Cal.

David Friedberg: 24:55 Let me ask Senator Fetterman a question. So I appreciate your common sense views on AI, on capitalism, on all the things we’re talking about. And I think that the people in Pennsylvania appreciate it. I think you’re very popular there. But I’m curious, do you ever get worried that you might get primaried in the Democratic Party when you come up? Because I mean the Bernie Sanders wing is powerful, they have a lot of activists, they’re very noisy. I mean, I appreciate your maverick streak and your independence, but how do you think about that risk?

John Fetterman: 25:39 Well, a seat or a job is is not- I’m always going to be- I’m going to be honest and I’m always going to have, you know, my votes or my opinions are what I happen to believe is true. You know, it’s not a seat worth trying to maintain if I’m going to lie or to pretend that things aren’t absolutely true. Yeah, absolutely, I can be primaried and there are some Democrats that are angry at me. If they’re angry at me for supporting Israel, hey, they have at it. If they’re angry at me that I think it’s wrong to shut down the government, that’s fine. Um, if if they’re angry at me because I I refuse to call him a Nazi or a fascist or a piece of shit, I’ll never do that, you can hold me on that too. But what’s really strange and the the truth is, somebody that votes like a 93% of Democratic line and if I changed my party, there was a lot of policy intrigue that I’m going to change the party and I’m not, I’m never going to do that. And if I did I could change right now, I am changing it right now, my votes aren’t going to change, my views- excuse me, I wouldn’t vote any differently things I happen to believe. And and if if Democrats run me out of the party, they will be attacking a committed Democrat that votes your line 93% of the time because we’re in a unique time right now that I think things are… more important than trying to I I know what pays the bills as a Democrat now literally campaigns are based on fuck Trump literally in their campaign commercials yes and in their emails and outrage you know it’s constant rage bait I refuse to engage in that and I’m going to be an example of what I think’s entirely appropriate and and a lot of the conversations are driven by people that represent very you know safe blue states now like but that’s why Pennsylvania keeps people honest here and people are going to remember in 28 oh yeah oh I want to be bipartisan I want to get along you know like people don’t believe you you know they remember what what they’ve said and how people behave so that’s where I’m at so yeah I could be primaryed but what’s more important to be the truthful what I think’s are important values and remind people that the things we used to believe in you know I I think

Jason Calacanis: 28:13 Senator I want to I want to I want to just move to just domestic policy and economics for a second. You mentioned this incredible story in the green room which maybe you can start off with which is the quantum of people that reach out to you every week to mostly complain about various companies but just use that as an insight maybe to talk about AI because that’s a huge part of your state it’s also a huge part of the American economy and maybe compare it to what happened with shale and oil because there’s a lot of commonalities I think it’s quite interesting.

Dave McCormick: 28:45 Yeah it’s uh I don’t know if he gets the same amount but I on an average week we have 14 million people in Pennsylvania almost on an average week I’ll get something like 100,000 outreaches to me letters emails phone calls across different issues and you can almost see when the activists are mobilizing groups to come and make the case on certain things and I do a call every two weeks it’s sort of an open mic where you get about 10,000 people to show up and the the number of data center calls data centers have become a much bigger and pervasive thing and just to put this in perspective David was there Dina and I hosted an energy and innovation summit in Pennsylvania last July we had 92 billion dollars of investment committed we had the energy CEOs the AI CEOs big investors global investors we had Senator Fetterman came governor Shapiro came the president came the cabinet came it was amazing and that’s by the way that’s what you need winning is a team sport and winning in AI is a team sport and you need all those players at the table um and so it was a real success and since then there’s been enormous investments made in Pennsylvania I visited I just the other week, Homer City, 4.4 gigawatts of power from a coal plant that’s being transitioned to natural gas. 3.4 gigs is going to go into a data center complex, a gigawatt’s going back on the grid to hopefully bring down energy prices. So this is, this is happening across Pennsylvania, but the opposition is growing and it’s clear…

Jason Calacanis: 30:21 Is there any organic part to this? Like is this, because it’s very hard to understand what’s happening when you have these kind of dark forces, dark pools of money. I can’t… is there a legitimate like ‘I don’t want to have this in my backyard for X, Y, and Z’?

Dave McCormick: 30:35 Two things. There’s enormous misinformation and I think that misinformation is largely being driven by China and outside forces. And then there’s just legitimate not-understanding, not-knowing. And we need to do a much better job of making sure that the outlines of what these data centers mean to communities is clear. And, and frankly, there needs to be a much clearer covenant of what it means. If you’re going to have a data center in your community and you’re a township supervisor, here’s what you know: um, you’re going to they’re going to bring more energy than they’re going to use, they’re going to protect their water with closed loop, um they’re going to give this much to the tax base, they’re going to build schools or infrastructure, whatever they’re going to build.

Jason Calacanis: 31:14 Isn’t that first part the only thing that matters in people’s minds? ‘I just don’t want my energy bill to go up’?

Dave McCormick: 31:21 No. Um, because as soon as you get through that, they move to the next thing, which is water. And then the schools are going to be crowded and there’s like so…

Jason Calacanis: 31:27 The schools are going to be crowded?

Dave McCormick: 31:29 Yeah, because there’ll be new jobs? No, because there’ll be new people and they’re not, they’re not making the connection to the tax base. The roads are going to be crowded. So there’s a whole comprehensive case that needs to be made. And, what Chamath was making the point, we went through this before, John and I both lived through this with fracking. Huge campaign against, huge misinformation, lack of understanding, and 15 years later I’d say there’s pretty broad-base support for fracking.

John Fetterman: 31:54 Yeah, well, no, yeah, there’s unlimited money. I mean, you know, they, they someone finds some B-roll kind of a comment and they put $10 million behind it and they can, they can turn you into the most extreme kinds of things. It’s ironically, you know, originally people tried to convince people that I’m a socialist, and now people are like, now I’m MAGA or whatever. I’m like, no, I’m just I haven’t changed. My views are, my views are, are the, the same. And, you know, I would tell people energy is national security. Look at what’s happening in, you know, in, in Europe and other parts now if, if you don’t have energy security, then your, your national security is in danger. Now, AI is coming. And, and what, what he’s done, he created this amazing symposium to remind people that these, you know, we need both. We need energy and Pennsylvania produces a lot of that. And now also AI is coming otherwise we’d still be using the spinny Jenny or whatever that’s called, you know. So it’s why do we talk about data centers… Because people, forces are describing them as a scourge or a cancer that’s going to bankrupt you or destroy your community. Why do we have that right now? Because this is something that’s going to transform our society. Absolutely there could be a downside, but overall it’s going to be much more productive and that’s going to create new opportunities. Now, I refuse to become a party of Luddites. And now that’s honest. If I had to vote now and claim that that’s all cancer, it’s danger, and it’s all downside, then I’d be lying and that’s why I’m saying, Republican or Democrat, you know, that’s a fact. These things are very, very important and that’s why I’m going to—

Jason Calacanis: 33:43 Can I just double-click on this thing when you compared it to shale? So, in shale, I’m going to assume that when shale was escalating in importance, the pushback were from corporate interests that would have economically lost out. That’s what I’m guessing. The majority—?

Dave McCormick: 34:05 That’s what I’m guessing.

Chamath Palihapitiya: 34:09 Environmentalists.

David Friedberg: 34:10 Environmental.

Dave McCormick: 34:12 Well if you go to those two parts, one was the campaign of misinformation and the other is a lack of understanding. There’s much more of a campaign of misinformation from outside forces this time around. But but what happened in the in the case of shale? Methane, destroys the water table, you know, don’t want these in our backyards. What happened of course was these enormous royalties for the farmers. We’re the fourth largest natural gas reserves in the world. If we were a country, Pennsylvania would be number four. This is the economic engine for our state. Our state is the second largest energy producer in the country. So this unlocks everything for Pennsylvania. And as those jobs started to be created, so you saw the economic benefit, the misinformation about the methane and the water table became clear, slowly and much too long, 15 years later we’re now in a place where I bet 80% of people would support fracking.

John Fetterman: 35:07 Last night event, you know, you described that we have six to eight months ahead of China, right? Is that right? Yeah. Okay, so now, you know, my party is driving for a moratorium for data centers. Like, I mean, do you think China doesn’t love that? You know like and that’s why they’re they’re part of driving some of this this view. You want to give that race to China? It’s coming. It’s coming. It’s the choice. Do you want America to build that chassis or do you want the Chinese to do that? You know, like, yeah, you know data centers can make some things with some some—

Jason Calacanis: 35:49 And at the core of that, John, is what you said earlier, which is it starts with TDS and then it goes with ‘give China AI’. Is that— is it as reductively simple as that?

John Fetterman: 35:56 I would say this, vote me out if you think it’s okay to give that race to—

Dave McCormick: 36:00 You’re gonna give China a benefit to win the AI race. Vote me out! You know, and you know, but it’s like so…

David Friedberg: 36:09 Your favorite person in the audience, my wife is clapping for you.

Dave McCormick: 36:11 Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, no but exactly. Exactly. That’s exactly the way I see it. I mean, this is exactly the way I see it as well. So, um, we have great bipartisan agreement here.

David Friedberg: 36:21 So Dave, I was at your summit last year, the Energy and Innovation Summit where you announced 90 billion dollars of new investments. The thing I was struck by was how broad-based the representation was at that summit. You didn’t just have software companies, you had hardware companies, you had manufacturing, you had robotics, you had energy, nuclear, fracking. And then most interestingly is that you had the trades there. And that’s when a light bulb went on for me that oh, this is a blue collar boom because this is a construction boom and blue collar workers are really gonna benefit and the trades who represented there spoke to that. And since then we’ve had hundreds of thousands of new jobs, construction jobs created and 25 to 30 percent wage increases for construction workers. And so I’m curious, does that help make the cause more popular in Pennsylvania? Are those trades, are the unions still on board with this or have the politics of that changed at all over the past year?

Dave McCormick: 37:25 It’s a great question. And it’s been extraordinary. So just in the last 15-16 months, and these are related by the way, it’s not just energy projects and data centers, it’s US Steel and a next generation mill, it’s Eli Lilly building a new plant, it’s Hanwha in the Philadelphia shipyard. But they’re coming in part because of the data centers and the energy projects. And so I’ve spent a lot of time with the trades lately. The most secure job in Pennsylvania right now is a secure welder. I mean, is a seasoned welder.

David Friedberg: 38:00 And electrician.

Dave McCormick: 38:01 And electrician. These, honestly, these folks are coming out, they’re getting the training, they’re in their late teens, early 20s. They’re making more than 100 grand a year in these sites and they can’t build, they can’t hire quick enough. They can’t find enough people to meet the demand. And you know these the data centers, I mean I’ve looked closely at them, there’s one you know coming in Berwick, Pennsylvania right next to where my where I went to high school. You know the the way to think about it is there’s sort of four buckets of economic activity that comes, jobs that come. There’s of course the deals that come with them, but there’s the thousands of jobs to build the data centers and the energy that goes side by side. So these are 5, 10,000 folks on the site. Then there’s the hundreds of people to run the data centers. Then of course every 3 to 4 years the the hardware and everything in the data centers gets upgraded which brings in hundreds, sometimes thousands of jobs. There’s the energy that’s going side by side. Then there’s the restaurants, the hotels. I met with the the trucking association the other day, they they guess that it’s about two logistics jobs… …for every one job in a data center, these things are economic engines. So once you get that covenant straight, people are willing to make the decision. And if a township supervisor or a county commissioner, no Senator is going to tell them to do this. This has to come from the ground up in terms of making the decision. But once they decide to do that, it’s a huge engine for their communities. If they decide not to do it, my point is, okay, what’s your plan? What is the plan? In Pennsylvania, we’ve been losing people for 20 years, we can’t get our kids to stay. This is like a rebirth, it’s amazing what’s happening. But we got to break through the misinformation.

Jason Calacanis: 39:42 Friedberg, you have a final question? If not, I’ll…

David Friedberg: 39:44 Well, I mean, I think on this point, why do you think it’s so difficult for the Democrats to embrace the facts on the ground? Because you have an empirical story to share about job creation, value creation, and there’s no empiricism on the other side that there’s job displacement or job loss in the white-collar jobs, which is generally part of the narrative.

Dave McCormick: 40:05 Well, two things. I would say the notion of AI broadly is getting munged with the notion of data centers in a narrow thing. Data centers, of course, are an enormous component of this, but those two, those two things are unrelated. Second, I don’t think it’s just Democrats. Like, I mean, we have…

Jason Calacanis: 40:25 No, the America First movement is now in this horseshoe exactly aligned with the Democrats.

Dave McCormick: 40:28 We have the far left and the far right converging on an anti-

David Sacks: 40:32 We even have some besties who occasionally buy into the jobs apocalypse.

Jason Calacanis: 40:36 No, no, I’m… I’m job displacement. Sacks, don’t ever misrepresent me. I will call you out every time. I just believe there’ll be job…

David Friedberg: 40:43 You could also use the word job mobility.

Jason Calacanis: 40:45 What I… I’ll let finish my sentence please. I’m speaking. Job displacement is occurring and that new jobs need to be created to fill that in. And I think that’s the blind spot of the people who have Trump dedication syndrome is that they will never actually do anything that would modestly criticize the President. And that’s part of the challenge. I want to have a last question just about the amount of money being donated by special interest. Do we need to get money out of politics? Because that seems to be the root of a lot of these problems is that, you know, billionaires can give 50 million, 100 million, 200 million, whether it’s Soros or friends of ours. It feels like there’s way too much money in politics. Does that have to change for this type of issue, you know, around data centers etc. and special interest? And how do we… can we ever get there?

Dave McCormick: 41:40 Yeah, well, I… I would say of the five things I would do to fix America right now, that wouldn’t be in the top five. But yes, conceptually I’d like to get money out of politics. There was… my race was 500 million dollars. We raised 200 million on my side, 300 million on the opposition side. We couldn’t keep up.

John Fetterman: 41:57 500 million! I was record before in ‘22. We raised, you know, and…

Dave McCormick: 42:00 And now, my race was 300-330 mil, and and now that’s quaint. Wait ‘til ‘26. Wait ‘til ‘28.

John Fetterman: 42:07 This is gonna look like quaint. And and that’s the thing. You know, collectively…

Jason Calacanis: 42:13 We either need to get money out or this group needs to be donating a lot more to both of you.

Dave McCormick: 42:17 Yeah, or get get rid of the primary process too. You know? And and now open to other people.

John Fetterman: 42:23 And now these primaries, they identify the extreme kinds of views and put out someone, you know, and that’s part of it now too. Collectively, $300 million were spent to describe- to destroy our reputations.

Dave McCormick: 42:34 Think what $300 million could do for Pennsylvania or for people. That was spent to destroy reputations. You know, you’re terrible, I’m terrible. That’s the absurdity of the American politics right now.

Jason Calacanis: 42:46 On that note, I actually want to say both of you are incredibly rational and reasonable and incredible Americans. So I just want to thank you. Senators Fetterman and McCormick.

John Fetterman: 42:54 Very much appreciate it.

Dave McCormick: 42:55 Thank you. Great to see you.